[Angela] (0:14 - 1:05)
For years I ate well, trained hard, slept properly and still felt flat, fatigue, brain fog, poor recovery. The missing piece for me in midlife wasn't more supplements, it was minerals, deep cellular mineral support my body was missing and that's why I've partnered with Bean Minerals, products I personally use. You can try them out at beanminerals.com forward slash Angela with code Angela for 20% off. I want to look at fuelling for exercise, first of all, because I think this is the other piece that's really important. So when we were doing the initial questions, you and I were talking about how 0.8 grammes per kilo of protein is not going to be enough, but 0.8 grammes of protein per pound of body weight, which is a little bit more of a confusing calculation, is going to be, so there's a lot of confusion.

[Stuart Phillip] (1:05 - 1:21)
Pounds, you know, for anybody from the United States, that's the currency. Canadians are an odd group because we do pounds because 80% of us are within 100 kilometres of the US border, but we do kilos because we're metric.

[Angela] (1:21 - 1:24)
So we do both as well actually, funnily enough, in the UK.

[Stuart Phillip] (1:25 - 1:40)
Yeah, and you do stones as well, I can't do stones, that's just, I don't know, that's obviously an old unit of measurement, 14 pounds per stone, yeah, amazing, yeah. You're 10 stones, and I'm like, is that a lot or a little, and I'm like, is that, yeah.

[Angela] (1:40 - 1:43)
You have to multiply it by 14 to get the pounds.

[Stuart Phillip] (1:43 - 1:45)
Yeah, base 14 is not easy.

[Angela] (1:46 - 2:14)
Yeah, no, it isn't, it isn't, I totally agree. So when we're looking at this, protein intake, first of all, so that we can optimise the results. Obviously, protein is important for everything, right, it's the building blocks of our bodies.

So we need to get a minimum, or somewhere between 0.8 grammes and one gramme, is that right, per pound of, I've heard it, lean mass, and then I've heard it said body weight. What is the idea if we're trying to improve? So we're not just trying to maintain, we want to increase muscle mass.

[Stuart Phillip] (2:14 - 6:07)
Right, so again, pulling back all the calculations, and let's just use kilos for ease. So 0.8 grammes of protein per kilo is the recommended dietary allowance, or it used to be in the UK, it was the recommended nutrient intake, or the RNI. That, to me, is sort of a basement level, everybody should be getting that.

We think that people should probably aim for somewhere closer to about 1.2 grammes per kilo, and I think benefits still accrue from 1.2 up to about 1.6 grammes per kilo. Beyond that, I think you're, again, you're sort of, it's the last kind of twist of the screwdriver to tighten the screw, and I don't think that there's too many benefits after that. So that generally is around 0.7 to 0.8 grammes per pound. I don't think much really comes from going higher than that. If you like to eat it, I don't have a problem with that, that's not a big deal. From the standpoint of gaining then, just remember, and I think that this, I've used this analogy lots of times, there's lots of different ways of saying it, but going to the gym and lifting weights literally bakes the cake.

And then the thin layer of icing, icing is the right word, people call it glaze or frosting or whatever, I call it icing, but that's what the protein is. I think that there are a lot of, again, rather heated debates around, you know, the virtues of protein, and like I want to say, hand on heart, I've been studying the interaction between exercise and nutrition for close to 30 years now, and when you study muscle, you necessarily study protein, it's just the way it is. And so, I love protein, right, I think it's amazing, but I think what people are realising after 30 years, which is about the time span it takes to sort of get messages out, is that the RDA just isn't cutting it.

I'm so happy that people are talking about this, because that's been sort of a career-long ambition. I think now the pendulum has swung, as it tends to do, is that the RDA is good, more is better, and I'm sort of, yes, that's true. And then more than more is betterer, you know, like it's as if protein's effects just keep accruing up to astonishingly high quantities, and you know, the outward appearance of that is the number of protein products that are out on the market, some of which are ridiculous.

And it's true to a certain point, but the benefits stop after a while, because you can't store protein, there's no way of tucking it away, it's not like fat, where you can store it as body fat, or even glycogen, that you can store it as stored carbohydrate in muscle or liver, like there's no little sack of protein, you know, you use it, and then in the immediate sort of hours afterwards, if you don't use it, you pull nitrogen off, you make urea, and we excrete that, and then what's left over, you just burn that. So, you know, I'm fond of all of the discussions around protein, and I can't tell you how happy it makes me that people are paying attention to it, but I think we're kind of overcooking the message a little bit, and I get asked this a lot, and people are like, why are people obsessed?

I'm like, because they're getting the message, but it's been taken by some people, and just sort of more than more is better than better, and you know, again, it's sort of that last tightening of the screw, and I just think that it's been a little bit overcooked, to be honest with you. So, if you're in the gym, you're baking a cake, protein's dialled in, 1.6, I think, is the upper limit, that's about 0.7 grammes per pound, you're getting a lot of things right, and the expectation that more protein would, you know, sort of unlock, I hear, or lots of other adjectives, isn't true.

[Angela] (6:07 - 6:32)
What about then, when we look at the amount of protein that you can absorb? I know there was a study done, where I think they pushed people up to something like 90 grammes, I mean, if I look at a chicken breast, like a large chicken breast in the UK, is actually quite a lot of protein, I think it's like 50 grammes or so, do we need to be concerned with how much in one sitting, also the size of the individual, how much of this matters?

[Stuart Phillip] (6:33 - 8:57)
Yeah, I'm rolling my eyes a little bit, because I think we, my lab group, and our research group, has unwittingly contributed to some of the noise out there, so we published a study some years ago, in which we said that the amount of protein that your muscle could use and maximally stimulate making new muscle was close to, it was somewhere between 20 and 40 grammes, and everybody said, Stu Phillips says that all you can absorb is somewhere between 20 and 40 grammes, I'm like, no, no, no, that's not what we said, like your body can absorb an enormous amount of protein, hundreds of grammes, it takes a while, it's sort of like when the boa constrictor swallows the goat, and it just sits there for months and digests the goat, so if you eat a big dinner, as we're probably all about to do in about a week's time, you sit and you're like, it's hard to digest big meals and lots of protein for sure, but you can digest it, the question is really how much can you use, and I think the answer is still close to between 30 and 40 grammes, there was a study recently, and it was done by a fellow named Jorn Trommelin, he's a good friend of another good friend, Luke Van Loon, both of whom are from the Netherlands, looking at 25 grammes versus 100 grammes, and what they showed was that the 100 gramme dose was marginally better, it's about 20 to 30% better than the 25 gramme dose, and so they were sort of saying, look at this, but again, that's been misinterpreted as saying, well look, that maximises, and I'm like, well what number is between 25 and 100, and 30 to 40 is sort of in that range, and I think again, to give you some context, we've got a study that's on the go that's suggesting that that's where the intake sort of plateaus out, in fact, and I'm sure your listeners would find this interesting, there's a woman named Jo Malanson, who worked with a fellow named Paul Greenhoff at the University of Nottingham, and she did a really cool study, and all in women, I hasten to add, that 15, 30, and 60 grammes of protein, and actually the 30 gramme dose was the sweet spot for these women on a per meal basis to maximise making new muscle.

[Angela] (8:58 - 9:01)
And what age were the women? Were they all ages, or does that make a difference?

[Stuart Phillip] (9:02 - 9:47)
Good question, and I'm like, ah, you know, I'm guessing that they would be younger, that the project was aimed actually at female military recruits, and so I'm guessing sort of younger, but in that sense then that, you know, you're sort of, so these enormously high doses now that people are saying because ostensibly there's no upper limit, that's not true, of course there's an upper limit, and you know, I think that we have to take that into account, and I still, I'm still going to put, you know, if I'm going to go all in, and it's like, you know, I'm still going to go between 30 and 40 grammes is really getting the vast, if not all of the benefits, and you can absorb that.

[Angela] (9:48 - 9:51)
Even for peri and postmenopausal women, right?

[Stuart Phillip] (9:51 - 11:13)
Absolutely, and like again, there's an interesting sort of narrative that's out there that menopause induces like some degree of what's called anabolic resistance, akin to insulin resistance, so anabolic resistance would be, you know, your muscles inability to respond to protein, and the truth is that that happens with normal ageing, period, but being active actually pushes back against it, and so women are sort of being told is that these doses of protein, and I'm like, that's not true, there's nothing around menopause or anything that would make you so much more anabolically resistant that normal ageing wouldn't do, and if you're exercising, all of that becomes a moot point, so there's nothing physiologically around menopause that would make me say that increases your need for protein, and we've got an article that just appeared recently sort of making that point, but you'll have to wait about two years, and you can invite me back on your show, and I'll give you the results of a study in peri-menopausal women that we're doing like literally right now. We just started recruiting for it, we've got the first wave going through, and there will be a difference in protein, and my bet is that it probably won't make a big difference, but we'll see. Maybe I'm wrong.

I stand to be corrected, so.

[Angela] (11:13 - 11:16)
We'll know in two years. In the meantime, I'll put the article in the show notes.

[Stuart Phillip] (11:16 - 11:36)
People are disappointed when I say two years, and I'm like, that's kind of how long it takes to train all those women and do all this stuff right, and they're like, two years? And I'm like, yeah, give me a couple of million dollars, I could get it done probably in two months, but I don't have two million dollars or pounds. I take two million pounds in a heartbeat, that's close to four million dollars.

[Angela] (11:37 - 11:47)
Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. We'll wait for that one then.

What about protein timing? Do we need to have protein soon after working out? Is there an anabolic window?

[Stuart Phillip] (11:47 - 13:47)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great question. The anabolic window, really, you know, the concept, you exercise, your muscle becomes sensitive to nutrients, carbohydrates, for sure, protein, absolutely.

And I think the concept, really driven by carbohydrate data, about replenishing muscle glycogen, would say that the window is open for a short period of time. I think everything that we've learned since that sort of, you know, teaching, is that actually the window is open much, much longer. For carbohydrates, it might be a little shorter.

I might say eight to 12 hours, and it might be important if you're redoing exercise. So if you're gonna hit it late in the day and then you're doing it again in the morning, then get some carbs on board. It appears, though, that the window for protein, you know, accretion and for it to do its magic in terms of repairing muscle is much, much longer.

It could be as long as actually 48 hours. So, you know, if you lift it on Monday, your muscle is actually sensitive to protein for even, you know, into Wednesday. It's gonna diminish over time.

And I have a good friend named Sean Arendt. He's at the University of South Carolina. And he wrote a great narrative calling it the, instead of the window, calling it the garage, or I guess garage door.

I mean, it's just, you know, it's open for a long time and it's big. So the timing, you know, again, it's sort of big picture, get the protein you want in a day. Next thing, maybe timing is important.

Next thing, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So these are all smaller considerations. But yeah, there's no, there's nothing that says you need to get it pre-exercise or post-exercise.

The big picture is just get it in a day. And then next, well, the first big picture is, you know, go to the gym and do that.

[Angela] (13:48 - 13:51)
And then get enough across the day. And then the carbohydrates, as you say, are important.

[Stuart Phillip] (13:52 - 14:00)
Yeah, I know they've been maligned a little bit, but carbs drive high intensity performance. No, absolutely no question about that.

[Angela] (14:01 - 14:21)
And when we look at carbohydrates, do you tend to match that to protein intake? Or do you think it's a little higher? So for example, if someone's having say 100 grammes of protein a day, would they have around 100 to 150 grammes of carbs?

Or is that really determined by the amount of exercise they're doing?

[Stuart Phillip] (14:22 - 15:13)
Yeah, no, it's absolutely determined by what they're doing, the intensity of what they're doing. And I, you know, usually it's sort of, if you're getting around 100 grammes of protein, then you're probably looking at about three to 400 grammes of carbohydrate. If you're doing lots of work, and like if you're a triathlete, then you're talking about, you know, 600 plus grammes of carbohydrate.

But again, it's all within your energy budget. And I know everybody has choices. And I'm okay if people want to consume more protein.

I think, you know, all of the protein's gonna, either kidneys or bone, neither of which are true, etc. Pick your calorie intake to fill your need for sure. But carbs are not going to kill you.

Your muscles love carbs. They're, yeah, they're a good fuel for performance for sure.

[Angela] (15:14 - 15:25)
And I think that's the thing, right? Is so many people have been scared off by carbohydrates over the years. And, you know, they're an obsession recently over wearing continuous glucose monitors and going, oh no, my blood sugar's spiking.

[Stuart Phillip] (15:25 - 16:35)
It's crazy, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's sort of interesting, right? It's like, you know, the line is ignorance is bliss almost, right?

And then you put a glucose monitor on, you have some carrots and people, oh my, look at my blood glucose. And I'm like, it's a carrot for crying out loud. So it's high glycaemic index.

Yes, there's some sugar in there, but also a lot of really good things in a carrot, you know, so, but I, yeah, exactly. And we're beginning to care about things that, you know, again, I sort of like this kind of, okay, there's the 40,000th of you. And, you know, carrots and fruits and vegetables are extraordinarily good for you.

And I think they taste great. And we would cut them out because of an excursion in blood glucose. The notion is just ridiculous.

So I think people who are obsessing about that are really worrying about the details and the minutiae that just is not, you know, something that you need to obsess about. Big picture, you're going to the gym. I'm like exercise, the forgiver of many sins, risk for every chronic disease down.

And your blood glucose spiked after some carrots. I'm like, not a big deal.

[Angela] (16:36 - 17:58)
I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey to vibrant health and high performance. Make sure you check out the show notes for a summary of all the important links to everything we talked about. And if you enjoyed this episode, hit the follow button and share it with a friend on social media or leave a review over on Apple Podcasts.

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Angela talks to Professor Stuart Philips, who challenges the long-standing "Anabolic Window" myth, revealing that muscle sensitivity to protein actually lasts up to 48 hours post-exercise rather than a mere 30-minute window. 

The conversation cuts through the noise of modern protein obsession, establishing that while the RDA is a baseline, the true sweet spot for muscle synthesis lies between 1.2g and 1.6g per kilogram of body weight.

WHAT YOU’LL LEARN:

• The protein "sweet spot": While the baseline requirement is 0.8g/kg, optimal benefits for muscle maintenance and growth occur between 1.2g and 1.6g per kilogram.
• The myth of the 30-minute window: The "Anabolic Window" is much larger than previously thought; muscles remain sensitive to protein for up to 48 hours after a workout. 
• Dosage limits: For most people, including perimenopausal and postmenopausal women, 30g to 40g of protein per meal is the effective limit for stimulating new muscle growth. 
• Carbohydrates are essential: Despite modern "carb-phobia," carbohydrates are the primary drivers of high-intensity performance